Sun_Ed | Let me start by introducing myself. |
Sun_Ed | My name is Ed Burns |
Sun_Ed | Some of you may know me from my blog on java.net |
Sun_Ed | Sorry, |
citrookie | hi ed |
Sun_Ed | Firefox crashed when trying to paste the URL of my blog |
Sun_Ed | Now I'm trying safari |
Sun_Ed | Let me see if paste works there. |
Abednego | use webstart. no browser dependency. ;-) |
citrookie | i'm just want to ask is this new stuff from the sun will be free ??? |
mike | funny - Ed was asking about a webstart version just today |
Sun_Ed | Yes, but i did'nt have time to install it. |
Sun_Ed | Anyhow, the blog is http://weblogs.java.net/blog/edburns/ |
Sun_Ed | I'm the co spec lead for the JavaServer Faces specification. |
mess | Ed, I have one question can you talk about production deployments of JSF |
Sun_Ed | I'll be here for the next hour to answer your questions about JSF, and Sun Java Studio Creator. |
Sartak | **Sartak bookmarks Ed's blog. |
Sun_Ed | And also AJAX and JSF. |
Sun_Ed | mess: sure, let's talk production deployments. |
Sun_Ed | This question came up at the Java One 2005 Web Framework Smackdown |
Sun_Ed | Fedex is using JSF for intranet applications. |
Sun_Ed | ADP, the paycheck processing company is using it for a mission critical customer faceing application. |
Sun_Ed | **Sun_Ed tries pasting again |
Sun_Ed | https://demopaystatements.adp.com/index.jsf |
Sun_Ed | Ahh, it worked. |
Sun_Ed | However, I'd love to hear more about customer deployments. |
citrookie | so ed what's new in the Java Studio Creator ?? would it be like the Visual Studio from Microsoft ?? |
mess | I saw a presentation at JavaOne with an energy company. It seemed to speed up web development significantly |
Sun_Ed | mess: Can you please share more specifics about the presentation? |
Sun_Ed | mess: remember any names? |
Sun_Ed | This site also has some great resources on JSF in general, and JSF deployments in specific. |
Sun_Ed | http://jsfcentral.com/trenches/ |
Sun_Ed | citrookie: What's new. Lots. |
Sun_Ed | citrookie: for one thing, we have a world class component library that will be included with the tool |
Sun_Ed | This library has sortable tables, trees, a really nice calendar chooser, various layout components |
mess | Ed I'm sorry I can't remember the name of the company |
Sun_Ed | mess: no problem. Was it a technical session or a BOF? |
Sun_Ed | mess: do you remember what day it was on? |
johncar | Sun_Ed: time from time I've had, sadly, to debug .jsp. JSR-45 compliant IDE/container allow to remote debug .jsp. I've got no idea about .jsf (haven't switched to that yet). Is it possible to debug/remote debug pages made using JSF? |
mess | technical, it was a short presentation, I believe on Wednesday |
Sun_Ed | mess: morning, evening, night? |
Sun_Ed | johncar: If it's possible to debug a JSP with a JSR-45 IDE (most are these days) then it's possible to debug a JSF JSP page as well. |
mess | It was on the conference floor |
mess | not one of the main presentations |
Sun_Ed | mess: OHHHH |
Sun_Ed | I see |
Sun_Ed | mess: thanks, I have access to the bof and technical presos, but not the show floor stuff. |
Sun_Ed | mess: if it comes up, please email me. |
mess | I'll definitely get the name of it tomorrow |
mess | and get it to you |
mike | Sun_Ed: for those that may not know... what is JavaServer Faces? |
mike | Sun_Ed: an how is it beneficial? |
Sun_Ed | johncar: The nice thing about JSF's usage about JSP is that the JSPs don't do any work other than populating the JSF components with values provided by the page author. |
Sun_Ed | mike: sure, that's a great question. |
johncar | firefox segfaulted for me too :) |
Sun_Ed | Well, everyone knows what a web framework is, right? |
Sun_Ed | Heck, most people probably have written one or two. It seems an "in" thing to do right now...write your own web framework. |
johncar | sure |
Sun_Ed | Anyhow, JavaServer Faces, JSF, was created to allow the java community to rise above the fracas of all those different frameworks and produce a best of breed web framework with input from the whole Java community |
Sun_Ed | via the JCP. |
Sun_Ed | That said, JSF is an easy to use, tool friendly, Object Oriented web framework |
Sun_Ed | with first class inversion of control and MVC concepts. |
Abednego | what is "inversion of control"? |
johncar | Sun_Ed: which IoC container do you use? |
Sun_Ed | JSF leverages accepted best practices for component design, event processing, and web navigation. |
Sun_Ed | Abednego: An oft cited reference on Inversion of Control, IoC, can be found at http://www.martinfowler.com/articles/injection.html, |
Sun_Ed | but briefly |
mike | Sun_Ed: what level of corporate adoption are you seeing with JSF? |
mike | Sun_Ed: better than expected? about what you expected? too early to tell? |
Sun_Ed | ioc describes a practice where the framework manages resources for you and calls methods you define. |
Sun_Ed | mike: I think we're seeing much better than expected adoption. |
Sun_Ed | mike: but let's disect the question a little more. |
Sun_Ed | there's tool adoption, component adoption, and application adoption. |
Sun_Ed | JSF has achieved more tool adoption in a shorter amount of time than any other java technology since swing |
Sun_Ed | IDEs exist from Sun, Oracle, IBM, Exadel, Borland and more. |
mess | Sun_Ed: Are there any plans for a standard design time API as part of JSF spec? |
mess | Sun_Ed: I assume each tool has their own Design Time API? |
Sun_Ed | As for component adoption, you can by off the shelf components from Business Objects, ILOG, SoftwareFX, Otrix and more. |
Sun_Ed | mess: great question, absolutely there are plans. |
Sun_Ed | We've broken down the design time problem into two related JSRs |
Sun_Ed | JSR-276 standardizes the jsf component metadata, such as: what components does this component work with? What skill level does this component require? etc |
Abednego | Sun_Ed: got it. thanks. the article helped. ;-) |
Sun_Ed | JSR-276 is at https://jsf-metadata-spec-public.dev.java.net/ |
Sun_Ed | The other JSR, 273, is focused on the true interactive design time environment, not just for JSF, but for ui components in general. |
Sun_Ed | JSR-273 is at https://jbdt-spec-public.dev.java.net/ |
Sun_Ed | I'd like to hear from people what you've heard about JSF |
Sun_Ed | What's the general buzz? |
Sun_Ed | I'm told by some who have attended the no fluff just stuff seminar that people have some strong opinions about it. |
Excilus | Why doesn't sun make a version of java more amenble to technical purposes? Many of my colleagues are trying to code in Java (it's all they know, and it's very good) but it just isn't fast enough |
Excilus | *scientific purposes I should say |
mike | for those interested... Ed's blog can be found at http://weblogs.java.net/blog/edburns/ |
Sun_Ed | Excilus: I'll have to get back to you on that because I don't have an answer for that right now. |
Excilus | Sun_Ed: Sure |
Sun_Ed | Excilus: I can say, though, that the API does have things, like a great floating point system, for scientific computing. |
Excilus | Sun_Ed: That I'm aware of |
Excilus | Sun_Ed: That's one of the big bonuses :) |
mess | Sun_Ed: The biggest problems we saw running the component competitions was the design time API and deployment API |
Sun_Ed | Excilus: please send me a mail to ed.burns@sun.com |
mess | Sun_Ed: most of the developers and designers really like learning a new API |
Sun_Ed | mess: yes, those areas just didn't make the cut for 1.0, and they are too big for 1.1 and 1.2, so we're tackling them in those separate products |
srikanth.l | hi |
WaterIsPure | hello. will you post the entire conversation log for this session ? |
debugger123 | hai |
mess | Sun_Ed: Are there plans for any new renderers? |
Sun_Ed | I just received a link for more feature set information on the next release of Java Studio Creator |
Sun_Ed | It's at |
Sun_Ed | http://developers.sun.com/jscreator/ |
Sun_Ed | mess: That's a good question because it allows me to explain one of the philosophies behind the java platform |
mike | WaterIsPure: it will be posted, yes |
Sun_Ed | and the JCP in specific. |
WaterIsPure | mike thanks |
Sun_Ed | A JCP spec must draw a balance between requiring enough functionality to allow users to build compelling apps that are still portable across implementations, |
Sun_Ed | and between putting so much into the spec that it is really difficult to implement. |
Sun_Ed | This is why the core JSF renderkit has so few components. |
mike | how many components are in the component library? |
Sun_Ed | JSF 1.2 doesn't introduce any new components or renderers, but we plan to create a new JSR to host future developemnt of the standard renderkit. |
mike | and.. who contributes? |
Sun_Ed | This way, implementations can continue to support basic implementations and more advanced ones. |
Sun_Ed | mike: how many: exactly 25 |
Sun_Ed | Who contributes? |
Sun_Ed | Well, the design is done by the JCP expert group, with public input, and the implementation is done by anyone who wants to. |
stormrider | so wats up with the sun airplane? |
stormrider | over dell hq? |
Sun_Ed | ahh, I heard about that. |
writer | /mgs OlexiyO can you please refesh the problem statements in the applet from mpsqas? |
stormrider | nice |
mike | :) |
stormrider | but sure cost a bomb |
stormrider | to fly that over dell hq |
Sun_Ed | We spare no expense here at Sun. |
mess | Sun_Ed: Is it possible to use JSF with a wireless application? |
stormrider | i can see |
Sun_Ed | mess: yes, definately. |
mike | Sun_Ed: so, is studio creator the only tool that focuses mainly on JSF? |
Sun_Ed | The flexible renderkit concept was created with wireless in mind. |
Sun_Ed | mike: definately not. It's the best, but by no means the only. |
Sun_Ed | Other JSF tools are Oracle JDeveloper, IBM WebSphere Studio, Exadel Studio, Borland JBuilder |
WaterIsPure | what other tools can be used ? |
WaterIsPure | thanks |
Emilian_Miron | Sun_Ed: how is JSF performance wise compared to jsp ? |
Sun_Ed | A good list of tools is at http://jsfcentral.com/products/plugins/ |
Sun_Ed | Emilian_Miron: Since JSP is a rendering only technology, I can only compare the rendering experiences. |
Sun_Ed | JSP doesn't do postback processing, so there is no comparison there. |
Sun_Ed | As for rendering, JSF is about as intensive as a large JSP custom tag library |
mess | Sun_Ed: what about ajax do you see the two technologies tied together? |
Sun_Ed | mess: absolutely. |
mess | Sun_Ed: we have seem the best results combining the two |
Sun_Ed | As we show with our blueprints catalog <https://bpcatalog.dev.java.net/nonav/ajax/jsf-ajax/frames.html> |
johncar | Sun_Ed: Some people use visual tool to develop Swing apps, other do it "by hand". Would JSF provides any benefits for people who are not programming using "click and drag" ? (eg, I'm using IntelliJ IDEA, which is hardly an "visual editor") |
Sun_Ed | JSF and AJAX are perfect together. |
Sun_Ed | Here's why |
Sun_Ed | Coding the AJAX javascript by hand is tedious and error prone, not to mention very difficult to get working across browsers. |
Sun_Ed | By encapsulating AJAX into JSF components, page authors can be spared the pain. |
Sun_Ed | So, if anyone tries to tell you that JSF is competing w ith AJAX, they just don't understand JSF, AJAX, or perhaps both. |
Sun_Ed | AJAX is nothing more than a technique to interact between a server and a browser without showing the user you're doing so. |
Sun_Ed | No "spinner", no page refresh. |
Sun_Ed | JSF, on the other hand is a framework that enables you to build components that use AJAX. |
Sun_Ed | johncar: you bring up another oft repeated JSF myth, "you need a visual tool to use JSF". |
Sun_Ed | This isn't true. I do my JSF development with netbeans. |
johncar | Sun_Ed: which is why I'm asking :) |
Sun_Ed | However, I tend not to build very pretty apps :) |
Sun_Ed | But that's not the tool's fault. |
johncar | :) |
Sun_Ed | JSF is all about separation of roles. |
Sun_Ed | your application architect can design the high level system, |
Sun_Ed | your software engineer can build the code and compents, |
Sun_Ed | your page designer can make it all look nice and pretty. |
Sun_Ed | johncar: if you can develop HTML without a visual tool, you can develop JSF. |
mike | not much interaction tonight |
mike | anyone have questions? |
tgu | why is to quite here? |
Sun_Ed | yes, let's hear the questions. |
Sun_Ed | I particulary want to hear any gripes people have about JSF. |
ruxmcs | Hi, Ed, could I ask, "What language implement Java Language?" |
tgu | what is JSF |
Sun_Ed | But I have to leave in 8 minutes! |
Sun_Ed | JSF is the industry standard Java Web Application Framework. |
mike | so... gripe quickly :) |
kanishkkunal | sujitkumar: hi |
ruxmcs | Java language is written by what langauge? C? asm ? |
WaterIsPure | does JSF compare to products like zope or open lazlo ? |
sujitkumar | kanishkkunal: not me ask them |
Sartak | I think he means which language implements the compilers and whatnot of Java. |
sowen | I think JSF is just like web controller in .NET |
Sun_Ed | ruxmcs: Actually, you can look at the code in https://mustang.dev.java.net/ Most of it is writen in Java itself, but the binary parts are written in C++ and some assembler. |
Sun_Ed | WaterIsPure: Good question. |
kanishkkunal | sujitkumar: ask what? |
kanishkkunal | sujitkumar: and whom? |
ruxmcs | Thanks! |
sujitkumar | kanishkkunal: ask the white markers |
tgu | kanishkkunal: and why? |
Sun_Ed | I saw a demo of lazlo, and I felt it could be implemented in JSF, but out of the box it is not competitive wyth JSF. |
kanishkkunal | tgu: ya |
sujitkumar | kanishkkunal: haha |
Sun_Ed | However, JSF requires no flash runtime. |
Sartak | Thank you Sun_Ed. :) |
Sun_Ed | Interestingly, with AJAX techniques, I think it would be possible to come close to what lazlo gives you with the flash runtime. |
bramandia | Sun_Ed: what does JSF need in the client side? |
Sun_Ed | bramandia: IE 5 or later |
Sun_Ed | bramandia: Netscape 6 or later |
Sun_Ed | bramandia: All releases of Safari work. |
Sun_Ed | bramandia: Most releases of Opera work. |
tgu | Sun_Ed: what exactly is a web application framework? |
Sun_Ed | bramandia: not sure about konquerer |
lordhiru | what abt mozilla? |
stormrider | so how JSP improve on developing using AJAX architecture? |
Sun_Ed | tgu: it's a java class library and runtime that enables you to build a user facing software application whose user interface is through a web browser. |
tgu | Sun_Ed: thxs |
Sun_Ed | lordhiru: Netscape 6 is mozilla, so all mozillas work. |
lordhiru | ok |
ruxmcs | one navie y/n question: Is Java language is opening source now? |
mike | Sun_Ed: thanks for chatting today |
mike | Sun_Ed: we all appreciate it |
WaterIsPure | ed do you recommend any books |
WaterIsPure | or articles on this technology ? |
Sun_Ed | People are leaving |
Sun_Ed | As far as books, I recommend the one by Kito Mann, look at jsfcentral.com |
Sun_Ed | Thanks for coming everyone! |
Sun_Ed | Good night! |